Overthinking

Let's talk about overthinking (or is it overwhelm?' 

We can all be prone to a little overthinking from time to time, but sometimes it can become a little too intrusive. In today's episode, Lee and Michelle debate what we mean by overthinking (and even that probably provides a good example of overthinking in action) and how we can tackle it.

Find Lee at:

• Website: https://welshotimaging.co.uk/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leeatwelshot/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lee.iggulden

Find Michelle at:

• Web: https://www.thinkingspacecoaching.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thinkingspacecoaching/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cmichellerogers/

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Courage and Confidence. We're doing it scared. We're learning as we go, and that's really the point of the whole project. To show people like you that people like us can learn new things and have fun while we do so.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

It's like if you take an umbrella, it won't rain, but if you don't take an umbrella, it will rain. Oh. That's my philosophy.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

I definitely have problems with my filter though. With your what? My filter. Oh, your filter. In 2008, I was made jobless, homeless, and asked to leave a camera club. All within the same week. Apparently I wasn't quite the right fit for the camera club. Spoiler alert, they were right. Way I figured it, there must be other people like me who wanted to learn how to use their camera rather than look at somebody's holiday photos. And yes, I know camera clubs are a little different today, but this was 16 years ago. Digital was only just becoming a thing. So I decided to start my own and turn it into a thriving business. I mean really, how hard could it be? Hello, my name is Lee Eagledon and I am one half of the Welsh Photographic Academy, and this podcast is for those who, just like me, need a little bit of courage and confidence.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Hello, my name is Michelle Rogers, founder of Thinking Space Coaching. I coach brilliant people who want to make the most of who they are, of their skills, their experience, and the opportunities they have so that they can make a difference in their work communities and beyond. One of my brilliant clients and now friends is Lee, and I've been coaching her since 2023. When she asked me to consider co-hosting a podcast with her, how could I resist? As business owners, we both understand how crucial it is to be courageous and to build up self-confidence. So here we are.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Hello everybody and welcome to Courage and Confidence episode 12. How have we got to 12 episodes? Amazing, really, isn't it? So cool. If you've been listening for all 12 episodes, thank you. Anyway, this week we're going to be looking at the topic of overthinking and um and what it is and maybe what it isn't. Because I've been looking at um our show notes and I actually think it's something different to overthinking, but I'm gonna leave it all up to Michelle. How would you describe overthinking, Michelle?

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Okay, well, this is going to be an interesting conversation, isn't it? Let's see where we get to. So for me, I the sort of mental image I have when I think of overthinking is when you look through the door of a washing machine and you see all those socks churning around and around, and you know, it's it's that kind of thing going on in your brain. So it's like we've got thoughts churning around in our head without any real resolution. It often focuses on um past regrets or future worries. You know, what if this happens, what if this doesn't happen? Um, and actually it's not terribly helpful, it tends to drain our energy and raise our anxiety. And part of the problem with it is that in our sort of modern day society, we all seem to be obsessed with perfection and being busy and being productive, and sometimes that can actually kind of turn the volume up on overthinking because we're always trying to be to be more, to be better, to be busier.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Right. So while I can see your point of view, and I absolutely agree with your point of view, I would think of it as overwhelm. Okay, especially the washing machine bit. Okay, because um I don't know if I suffer from overthinking, but I definitely suffer from overwhelm. And I've got a really good couple of examples um that have happened this week, actually. Okay, I I I overthink a little bit when it comes to me worrying about what other people think. So, oh gosh, did I say the right thing? I over I I overthink after the uh the thing has happened. Yeah, yeah. But the overwhelm happens uh before I start something and I'm procrastinating because it's overwhelming or during it. Um maybe it could be both those things.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Yeah, I mean I think whether we call it overthinking or overwhelming, uh of being overwhelmed doesn't uh mentally overwhelmed. I'm not sure that that matters too much as long as it's a helpful uh name for it for you personally or anybody else who's listening who sort of more identifies with the use of the word overwhelm uh than overthinking. Um and in both cases, it's it's um having the initial thought isn't the problem, it's how we engage with a thought. Okay, so um, or as Shakespeare puts it rather more elegantly in Hamlet, there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. So our reaction to a thought, our reaction to an event, our reaction to something that might happen in the future, you know, we can kind of we can choose how we respond. Um, and that's the you know, that's the issue.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

How we deal with it. Yeah. Yeah. So should I tell you what what's happened to me this week? So I have joined um the clubhouse. It's the clubhouse by Martha Keith, who is the business owner of Martha Brooks Stationery, and she's helping people with their Instagram accounts, and um, she does all sorts of challenges and helps people grow their Instagram accounts. I was asked to be a tester for the clubhouse, and there was only 30 people that were asked to be um testers in the clubhouse, and I was luckily enough, lucky enough to be asked to be one, and I absolutely loved it. I've made in in the course of a month, I have made so many new contacts, and more amazingly, two of them live on Anglesey, which is where I live, and two of them live in North Wales, so you know, it you know, about less than an hour to get to Landed No. And one of them lives in Manchester, and who doesn't mind mind traveling, and um so you know, easy to meet up because usually when I belong to these things, they're all down south, all you know, all the people are always down south, but I've made some really good friends and contacts, and they have amazing Instagram accounts as well. But um this week, I think it was on Tuesday, she opened the doors to everybody. So while I was in this clubhouse for a month, and there was just 30 of us, we were keeping up with each other's thoughts and ramblings and looking at their Instagram accounts and helping each other. But the doors were opened, and there's now over 800 people that have yeah, amazing for Martha, and she deserves every success that um comes her way, and brilliant, and I have no doubt that it's going to be beneficial to everybody who puts the time and effort in to do it. So yeah, that they were no, the doors were opened on Thursday, and the doors closed this Tuesday, and there was 800 people, but over the course of the weekend I tried to keep up with everybody, and when I say everybody, I mean everybody. My phone was constantly pinging the whole weekend, so every time somebody introduced themselves, I'd go and welcome them. Every time they posted a reel and wanted some help and input, I'd go and support them. And I was completely overwhelmed, and it was in my head that I had to do this. Of course, I didn't have to, nobody was making me, I was just making me, but I was so overwhelmed at what was going on, I wasn't getting any of my other work done. And I've just had to make a decision to turn off the notifications, um, because um I I can't, I'd be on my phone just you know, in this other social media platform and not getting any work done. Now that was overwhelming, but now am I overthinking because I'm thinking, well, if I'm not in there constantly replying to everybody and taking part in everything, am I gonna get what I need from it?

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Well, I think what you're showing there is that even if they might not be the same thing, they're probably adjacent to each other. So, you know, your overwhelm was kind of fueled by your sort of thinking about what might all these new people want. How would I like to be welcome to a group? How would I like to be engaged with? And so you were kind of you were sort of overthinking what one person can do. Um, you know, it that's a a huge uh uh group of people. I mean, staying sort of in touch with 30 people's hard work, you know, but staying in touch with, you know, more than 20 times as many is is is kind of impossible. It's like if you imagine that was an you know an actual event, if you went to into a room and there were 30 people there, yeah, you could go and say hello to them all. So you were there for a couple of hours, you could probably say hello to everybody. You wouldn't have 30 meaningful conversations, but you would have some meaningful interactions, and like you say, you'd identify people who were similar to you in some way, whether that's you know geographically or business-wise or whatever. Put 800 people in that room, you haven't got a hope. And so if you spent that time trying to go around and say hello to 800 people, the quality of those interactions would be like so diluted, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Yeah, and I agree. So today, while I was sitting in my slimming world class, I made a decision, I made a plan that what I was going to do within the community, because it's the only way I'm A going to get something out of it that um that I need, which is to learn how to do reels and video and things like that, and um, and still do my work as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, that illustrates really nicely sort of one of the the points that I would discuss with anybody who is feeling like this is kind of accepting that you can't you can't control everything, you can't do everything. Uh, you know, you you are one person, so you're physically not able to, you know, do the job of ten people, but also, you know, we can't control everything, and we spend quite a lot of time, or we can spend quite a lot of time thinking about things that we can do nothing about. You know, imagine that you are about to um put your house on the market. So uh this is an exercise I've I've gone through with some clients. So we draw three concentric circles, and in the middle circle there would be everything you can control. So, what you can control in a house sale is you know, you can control which estate agent you go to. Um you can control how tidy your house is, you know, whether you go through it and do a bit of DIY or put some stuff into storage so it looks really neat and tidy. Um, you can uh control when you're going to have viewings, you know, you're only gonna have viewings on a Saturday or Sunday. Um, so you can control that. You can influence, so this would be the next circle out, you can influence things like um how your property is marketed. You know, you can ask that it's marketed in a particular way, you can suggest that maybe they do an open day or something like that. And then in the outer circle, there are things that you can neither influence nor control. So you can't influence the UK economy, you can't influence uh or control um the housing market or what other people um you know think about living in Anglesey or whatever. You know, that's that's their responsibility. But it's so easy to spend a whole bunch of time right out in that, sort of thinking about other people who you'll never meet and what they might think of you, a bit like you and your 800 people. You know, if you're sort of worried thinking, oh gosh, I keep seeing this Lee coming up on other people's uh accounts and she's not liked mine. You can't think about that.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Yeah. Yeah. And it was actually getting to that stage. I'm thinking, oh, if I don't reply to this person, that per they're gonna feel upset that oh, yeah. And it's not even my business. I don't know how Martha's gonna cope.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Well, exactly. I was yeah, I was wondering what approach she was taking to that, but you know, I'm sure she's thought that through. And um, you know, like you say, it's incredible to have that response. So I really, really hope that that works works out well. So, I mean, another thing that you could do uh if you're sort of getting a bit stuck in overthinking, is we've talked a lot, Lee, about sort of staying focused and staying on on track. And you've talked before about using your bullet journal. Um, you can make a real effort to plan your day. When you're working to a plan, it's a lot more difficult to get caught up in kind of overthinking, what should I do next? You know, um what really matters because you've already made those decisions. I mean, I think it's always a good idea to have quite a flexible schedule because you know, we know that unexpected things happen. Um, but it's good to know kind of what the sort of the most important building blocks of your day are going to be. So, you know, for you, you talked um in our last episode when we were doing the the six-month review, you talked about how important it is to you to get events online because that really helps the business, you know. So that would be one of those sort of big blocks of time that you say every Monday or whenever, I'm gonna make sure I do that. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And you've talked as well about neurodivergency. There are some apps now that are available and are designed for people with that, uh, with those thinking styles and planning styles. One that um a couple of clients have uh recommended to me is called structured, but there are lots of other ones available too.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Yeah, I've I've seen those, and I think I'd probably get overwhelmed with those as well. I would get hyper-focused on filling it in.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Yeah, I mean, for you it's like a sort of a planning version of your gadget acquisition syndrome or whatever you call it, you know, sort of it's a new app, it's gonna change my life. Although I think you and I both suffer from the uh belief that a new notebook could solve pretty much every problem.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

A new notebook can solve every problem.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

And a particularly good pen.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah, every problem. Every pen problem.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

So if you're planning your day, you know, work out a way that works for you, whether it's pen and paper, whether it's an app, whatever it is, build in some flexibility, build in some breaks, build in a start to the day, build in a finish to the day so that you're not thinking, oh, should I do another hour? You know, um, should I go in earlier tomorrow? Uh, you know, when you're when you're on top of your planning, your brain doesn't have to do all that sort of fishing around for reasons to you know to to work longer hours.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Yeah. Yeah. I think the other part of overwhelm for me is the not knowing, you know, we've talked about this before, the not knowing where to start. So having a plan means that I already know where I should start. And once I start, I'm fine.

unknown 17:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

In fact, I'm on a roll, I get obsessive about it and won't stop till I'm finished.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, and again, it's about adapting, isn't it? You know, sort of one of the other uh tools that I talk about with people is kind of starting your day right. Um, a lot of people will say to themselves, Oh, I'll do, you know, two hours of work and then I'll take, you know, 15 minutes to go and you know, stand in the back garden and throw the ball for the dog, you know, for a bit of a break. I had a client uh who uh had ADHD and um he'd been encouraged to try that work of way of working, and it wasn't really working for him. He was just kind of looking forward to the the break, which for him I think was playing his guitar or something. Um, you know, and he was so fixated on gate on that that it was kind of distracting him for the couple of hours before that. So we tried something different, we tipped it on its head, and so he would start by spending 20 minutes or whatever before his working day began playing his guitar, and for him that put him in a really nice frame of mind. Yeah, I can see that working. Yeah, and so he was like, right, okay, I've you know, I've set a timer because he knew that he would need a reminder when to stop. But it meant he went into his day in a good mood. And you know, for some people, it might be going for a walk, it might be, you know, taking your kids to school, it might be that you've got a little playlist you listen to on the train on the journey to the office or whatever. Whatever it is for you that influences your day to feel kind of positive is gonna help churn out these kind of overthinking, overwhelm noises in your head.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

I know that if I don't walk in my door at the office at quarter to seven every morning, my day isn't going to go as well. Okay. If I say we've decided to come in later, usually when we've got a model um or we've got you know an event on or something, whatever it is, if I come in about sort of nine, ten o'clock later in the morning, um my day feels really discombobulated. It feels out of kilter. It I feel like I've I'm not achieving anything. Um it it it throws me way off if I'm not at my desk at quarter to seven, seven o'clock in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

So there you go. You've just illustrated what what for you starts your day right. Yeah. And having that plan. And you know, that won't suit everybody. You know, some people listening to this would be like quarter to seven, it's the middle of the night. You know, I love I know people that love to work, um, you know, would really like it if they started work at two o'clock in the afternoon and work till ten at night. Yeah. I would be terrible at that. I would be asleep, you know, but it's whatever works for you, isn't it? Well, hopefully. And if you work for yourself like we do, it's much easier. If you work for an employer, you know, you're gonna have to negotiate on that one. Um, but you know, working out when your energy's best, um, creating an environment that makes it possible for you to succeed. You know, this is all part of combating this kind of worrying about getting stuff done, you know, you getting it done properly or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Yeah. You do need coffee as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

What me or you or everyone?

SPEAKER_02 21:19

I well well, I can understand why everyone wouldn't need coffee. But yeah, I need a good cup of coffee. What's your favorite coffee? Strong and black.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

What make? Do you have a favorite make? I've got a NS Cafe machine. Okay. So I was just wondering if we could get, like, you know, courage and confidence sponsored by Illy. Sponsored by Lavatsa or whatever. I'd be really happy. If you're listening, Illy or Lavatsa, I'm ready to talk.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Yeah, as long as it's strong.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah, strong and black. That's how I drink my coffee too. So here's a good one. When we find ourselves disappearing into where Overthinking whether it's about our favorite coffee or whether it's about that stupid thing that we said, you know, 13 years ago in a meeting and we've never forgotten, or we're worrying about what might happen in 10 years' time. A good thing to do is to bring ourselves back into the present. Okay. And to do something like some people like to use a breathing technique for that. Um, you know, and there are all sorts of apps that can help you with that. And then there's that method, I don't know whether you've ever heard of it called the five, four, three, two, one method. Oh, I think she's got a different one where that's like you will start, you'll count down five, four, three, two, one, and then you'll just start. That's a good reminder. I like that one. No, this one I think is a mindfulness thing, and it's like it's to sort of anchor you in the moment, and you and you name five things that you can see around you, and four things that you can touch, three things that you can hear, two things you can smell, and one thing you can taste. Oh, and all it does is just bring your attention right back from those thoughts about 13 years ago or 10 years in the future or whatever, brings them right back into the moment because you're thinking, oh, I can, you know, from where you are, maybe you can smell the sea, or you can hear seagulls, or you know, you can taste some delicious tiramisu you just had at lunchtime.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah. Um, you know, one thing I I find myself asking myself, is there anything I can do about this? Yep, yeah. And if I can't, you know, do anything about that time I said something absolutely ridiculous to a colleague that doesn't even probably think I exist anymore, yeah. Then I well, no point thinking about it. So that's what I try to do.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah. I mean, that's that's nice, I think, that you emphasize uh try because sometimes those thoughts are really intrusive and they just pop up in the middle of the night or whatever. You have a weird dream about a place you used to work 20 years ago and you get up sort of all out of sorts because you've just remembered about that time that you I don't know, called the chairperson the wrong name in a meeting or something like that, you know. And like you say, they don't remember, they you know, it's not that important them. Another way you can do if this is something that you are um you're worrying about taking a decision, um, you can kind of zoom forward into the future and ask yourself, you know, will this thing, whatever it is I'm overthinking right now, will it matter, you know, in a week? Will it matter in a month? Will it matter in a year? You know, and some decisions that you're taking time to think about or overthink um will matter in a year. You know, it's it's really important if you decide to um, you know, change the way that you do events at Wellshot, for example. Um but you know, wondering whether or not um delegates coming on one of your photography courses would prefer ice buns or donuts for their mid-morning snack, you're probably not gonna be worrying about that.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Yeah. I tend to worry about the stupid little things. A lot of us do that, don't you? The stupid little things rather than the big things.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Yeah. So if you say to yourself, you know, will this matter in a week, will it matter in a month or whatever, that can really help you say how much time does this deserve? Yeah. You know, because like I say, you know, get the ice buns and the donuts and they can choose. It doesn't really matter, does it? Yeah. And you can take the rest back to the office for every end to eat. Yeah, or me. Yeah, yeah. So have I ever shown you my um really lovely I was gonna say they're egg timers, but they're not egg timers, sand timers with lots of different coloured sand in them. Yeah, in a session. Okay, I've got them on my desk. Next time we do a session, I'll show them to you. Um so I've got a set of five timers that all have uh an amount of sand in them, which takes um a determined time to fall from the top to the bottom. So I've got like a one-minute timer, I've got a three-minute timer, uh, I think the long longest one's probably half an hour. And because I will freely admit that I am prone to a bit of overthinking myself sometimes, I will uh use these timers as a way of kind of gamifying the decision making for myself. Okay. So if I'm like thinking about, I don't know, I'm gonna send an email out to a new prospect. And it's not like I haven't sent an email to a new prospect before. Um I if I feel like I'm gonna overthink that, I'll turn over the 15-minute timer, and I have to have finished dealing with this email by the time I see that sand all go down to the bottom of the timer. See, I'd be well into that. Love gamefight. You'd like that because it's a gadget and it's gamified.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Yeah, and I think I need one that's like probably I I think I need that 30-minute one because I could use that when I'm scrolling mindlessly.

unknown 27:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

I mean, you know, you could set a timer on your phone, you could set an alarm clock or whatever. It's whatever works for you. I don't want to use my phone because normally when I'm trying to focus on doing these tasks, yeah, I want my phone, you know, on flight mode and far, far away from me, you know. So so having these little sand timers just really works for me. And you know, they're quite pretty.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

Did I ever tell you if I told you how I've got I downloaded an app called Impulse? No. And it's like it's like lots of little games, but it's to keep your bra the like brain teasers and puzzles.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Yes, you did it, but I forgot the name. Carry on.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

And um, so when I'm feeling like overwhelmed, I've been I've been doing that, or when I want to take a five-minute break, well, I need one of your those egg timers because quite often I'll get home and I think, right, I'll just do five minutes of my it's like a building block one, and you have to slot it's like Tetris, yeah. Okay, yeah. Put all these yeah boxes and and your win points and things. I'll just play five minutes and then I'll turn my phone off. Well, next minute, my husband's going to bed. It's like, where's the night gone? So I need one of those egg timers, so I only play on it for like for a certain amount of time.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Yeah. And yeah, you mustn't turn it the other way up again at the end. And actually that leads quite nicely into another point, which is creating some space, which is exactly what you're doing there. You're saying, you know, I'm I'm too in the middle of something, I need to use a physical activity or a social activity, you know, you just say I'm gonna make a cup of tea and go and talk to my husband or whatever, um, to interrupt that kind of washing machine of swirling thoughts. But you're right, that creating some space, but not allowing that space to then turn into you know, three hours. Um, that's called that's quite important. So, yeah, by all means, sort of investigate having some timers or something like that, or an app or whatever works for you personally, but then also recognizing that sometimes we just need to kind of say stopped, you know. There are those signs you sometimes see uh when there's like building work going on, and it's a guy with a hard hat and he's got his hand out it just he's going, no, you know, you've almost got to stop your thoughts like that and go, no, I'm not gonna think about this, and create that space by you know going and playing Candy Crush for 10 minutes or something. Yeah, the games are available.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Saying to yourself, um, I'm not going there. Not going there, it's not not gonna be worth it to even think about it.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Yeah. I mean, I think if you think it's something um I do want to come back and think about this. I don't I can't think about it right now because sometimes you can't, you know, you're about to go into another meeting, you know, you've got another Zoom call coming up, but you've just heard that like I don't know, one of your models who was booked for the weekend has got chicken pox and she can't come. And you're going because you've only got 10 minutes, you're going into kind of catastrophizing. Um, so what you need to do to yourself then is you need to say, I'm setting aside some time later to think about that, you know, and you might have a little page in your notebook or whatever, and like I'm gonna do that later. So delay it to later in the day, and sometimes as well, that delay creates a bit of breathing space, you know, and so the thoughts come a bit more clearly later.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Yeah, I'm very good at coping with a crisis, uh-huh. Like in COVID, or if a model couldn't come, or if something, you know, the weather. You I can I know what needs to be done. And you know, in an emergency, I'm very, very good. Okay. And I I don't think, I just do. I know exactly what I need to do. It's the little things that I worry about, overthink about, get overwhelmed about. Yeah. About I've been writing the about page for the Wells Shop website, and you know, I've been thinking about it for weeks. And I knew what I wanted to write, I knew what we were going to do, but I was just procrastinating about it. I was overthinking it, I was overwhelmed by it. The other day, I just sat down and thought, I'm gonna write it.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Yeah, and the nice thing about it is when you've done exactly, but also the nice thing about that is it's a page on your website. If you come back to it next week and you think, I really don't like that paragraph, you just go in and change it.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Yeah, I was obsessing about whether I was going to call it uh about us page or uh what we can do page.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

And which did you go for?

SPEAKER_02 32:46

What we can do, because that is the most common thing that we're asked. Can you do this? So it's a list, it's a bit about us, but it's also a list about our most common, commonly asked questions, a list about what we can do to help people. Yeah. Um, but I was I was getting so worked up about that title, it was stopping me about you know, everything else. Yeah, if that title doesn't work, if people don't understand that, I'll change it to how it does, just like you know, nobody could really understand what Wellshop Progressive was.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah. Exactly. So we just change it, and and really that's my final point. Actually, sometimes if you if you need to interrupt your overthinking, the best thing to do is to take a decision. You need to choose something and move forward. Obviously, I'd recommend you start with low-risk decisions. Uh, you know, don't just decide to put the house on the market because I told you to stop overthinking. Um, you know, but if you're thinking, what's the title for this web page? That's fine. You start with that, you think that worked, like you say, you felt good about it. That's building your confidence, that's building your trust in your own abilities to make a good decision. So next time something like that happens, you know, you might just be like one percent more likely to be able to take the decision more quickly. But every time that happens, those things, those, those sort of confidence boosts are building and compounding interest on top of each other, aren't they? And you know, you're getting more and more confident. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, we talk about um what reminded me of this was you saying about you're good in a crisis. You know, we talk about the fight, flight, or freeze response. Apparently, overwhelm can be seen as a manifestation of the freeze response. Oh. So when you feel like I'm here, I'm like a rabbit in the headlights, you know, I don't know what to do, I don't know where to go. So that can trigger overwhelm. Oh, that makes sense, doesn't it? That's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I'm still not sure about overwhelm versus overthinking, but that doesn't matter. You know, we're not here on this podcast being experts about stuff. We're talking about our experiences, our work, our conversations. Um, you know, and we are more than happy to receive other people's feedback.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Do you know what we're doing, Michelle? What are we doing? We're overthinking it. We are overthinking it, excellent. Whether it's overthinking or overwhelm.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

I would really, really love to to pretend that we planned that, but we did not plan that. That is just that's the way we roll.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Yeah. And the the reason this whole debate's come up is because Michelle sends me a few notes, you know, um, before we do these episodes, and I was reading, you know, the just very small um synopsis about what we're gonna talk about, questions she's gonna ask me, really, so I'm prepared. Uh, but I was reading it and I thought, oh, is this overthinking or is it overwhelming? Because I feel and I do all these things, but I wouldn't have called it overthinking. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Well, it's an interesting point because I would say the hardest step uh in combating overthinking is noticing that we're doing it. Because I think sometimes we get so sort of caught up in it, it's very difficult to go, hang on a second, like you just did. Are we overthinking this? Uh you know, that's why it's good to talk to somebody else about it. And I think if you use some of these techniques, you can use them to help shift shift your energy from you know cranking the washing machine of useless thoughts to actual some meaningful deep thinking. I'm not saying don't think, yeah, I'm saying do useful thinking, purposeful thinking, deep thinking, learning thinking. Yeah, exactly. And as we overcome this, we can help build some build our courage, we build our confidence in ourselves, and we get greater clarity. So it's really worth it.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Yeah, yeah. So I give you permission not to think about that time you said that thing to your big boss or your friend or whatever 20 odd years ago, because it doesn't really matter anyway.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

No, do you think they're thinking about it? And if they think thinking about it, they're probably thinking, Oh, I wish I'd responded better. Yeah. When you know Michelle said that thing, or when Lee did that thing, or whatever. So yeah, they're probably not thinking about you, they're thinking about themselves.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

I have said some stupid things in my lifetime though.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

I think we've all said some daft things, but that's because we're human. Yeah. Well, you and I are. Let's hope everybody else is too.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

I definitely have problems with my filter though. With your what? My filter. Oh, your filter.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Sorry, that was a very Kiwi pronunciation of filter.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Oh, yeah. I think it and I say it, whereas really I should just think it and then think again about whether I should say it.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

I shouldn't overthink that, but I was gonna say that's a whole different topic, isn't it? So uh everybody, thank you for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends. If you'd like to get in touch with us, there's uh a link in uh the show notes below the episode that you can just click on and you can send us a text or you can ask us a question, you can suggest something that you'd like us to talk about or give us some feedback. Um we promise not to overthink any feedback.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

We definitely promise not to overthink any feedback.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

So we'll join you again soon, and thank you so much again for listening. And it's goodbye from me and Wiltshire.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

And it's goodbye from me and Sunny Clender No.