Boundaries

We hear a lot of talk about boundaries, but what are they, and how do we set them? 

Useful links: 

Boundaries by Dr Henry Cloud - https://www.drcloud.com/books/boundaries

Michelle's blog - Our values make us different -  https://turningoverpebbles.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/our-values-make-us-different/

Find Lee at:

• Website: https://welshotimaging.co.uk/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leeatwelshot/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lee.iggulden

Find Michelle at:

• Web: https://www.thinkingspacecoaching.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thinkingspacecoaching/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cmichellerogers/

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Courage and Confidence. We're doing it scared. We're learning as we go, and that's really the point of the whole project. To show people like you that people like us can learn new things and have fun while we do so. I think I've got a fly buzzing around that keeps landing on my leg.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

And this Lee is why I will never be spending Christmas with you. Hello and welcome to episode 13 of Courage and Confidence. And today we're going to take some time to talk about boundaries. Now, I don't know whether you've ever done this, but if you type the word boundaries into your favorite search engine and see how many results you get, and I can tell you that I have just done that, there are millions of results, and they're not all about boundary disputes with neighbors and things like that. The first four pages are all about personal boundaries. Most of us really want to be available and flexible and willing to help other people and accommodating, but sometimes crossing those bar boundaries can lead us to overwork and overwhelm. So, Lee, when you hear that phrase setting boundaries, what does that make you think of?

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Okay, well, I did Google it. I did. Did you? Yes, because I was overthinking it. I didn't know whether the boundaries or what I thought were boundaries were really boundaries. Okay. So I Googled it to make sure I was, you know, on the right wavelength. Yeah. Yeah. Because I didn't know if it had something whether my boundaries were part of my ADHD. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Or not. I mean, I would say that if they're your boundaries, then they're real boundaries. But maybe we'll find out more about that.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

So in answer to your question, boundaries, I know it's some that I use them. There's something to help me keep me focused and on track. So I don't become easily distracted, which we all know I'm proud to do. Um and that there's something to make sure that I I look after myself before I look after anybody else. Sort of like that, the the mask that drops down in an airplane. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

The oxygen mask. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Okay. And I know I need them, but I'm not very good at having them, or more important and more um correctly, I'm not very good at keeping them. Okay. When other people are involved and I'm trying to please them. Yeah. I mean worrying about what they think.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Yeah, it goes back to that point I said that most of us just really want to be help as helpful as we possibly can, you know, and and then that does lead us to sort of saying yes to stuff that maybe we should say no to, or maybe somebody else would be better placed to do. Um so yeah, I think the problem with boundaries is it sounds a bit um, it sounds very sort of serious and imposing, and maybe you imagine it like a big um like a I don't know, like the Great Wall of China, a big brick wall or a wall that surrounds a castle or something like that, you know, something sort of very impenetrable. But to me, I don't think it's as dramatic as that. So we've got a really long back garden, and most of that is is that the boundary is delineated by some simple sort of wooden posts and wire between that. So there's nothing um there's nothing solid there, but we know where our garden is, and our next door neighbors know where their garden is. So it's just this really simple, obvious sign that this bit's my garden, this bit's your garden. Okay. And and that fits in really nicely. So there's um uh an author, American author, Dr. Henry Cloud, and he's written a very useful book about boundaries. I'll put a link in the comments uh section of the show notes section. Um, and he says boundaries define us, they define what is me and what is not me. A boundary shows me where I end and someone else begins, leading me to a sense of ownership. Knowing what I am to own and take responsibility for gives me freedom. Taking responsibility for my life opens up many different options. Boundaries help us keep the good in and the bad out. Setting boundaries inevitably involves taking responsibility for your choices. You are the one who makes them, you are the one who must live with their consequences.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Wow, that's quite thought-provoking, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 5:19

What does that make you think?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Um it comes down to the responsibility bit, I think. So, or you know, the actions have consequences. Yeah, if I don't or I do do something, what are those consequences going to be? So the same could be said for boundaries, couldn't it?

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yeah, and I think you know, sometimes if you set a boundary, say, like, I don't know, you're you're not going to you're not going to work on a Saturday, uh, or whatever, that has consequences. It has positive consequences for your friends and your family, but for some of your colleagues, it might have negative consequences. And so you having to live with those consequences and take responsibility for them, I think is sometimes part of the problem that we experience around setting and maintaining our boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Yeah. Sometimes I think I don't have the right boundaries or the boundaries that I'm supposed to have, the normal boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

What are normal boundaries?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Well, like I said, I did Google it, and I know I've heard obviously um heard of boundaries before in my working life, and I know people say, Lee, you shouldn't answer your emails after a certain time. You should um have a day off, you should put your out of office on. I don't like those boundaries, they're not for me. They they make me more overwhelmed, they make me more anxious. Okay, because I know um that I will only have to come back and do it. Okay, like and I like to keep on um top of things, you know. Obviously, I'm a lot better than I was because I used to answer my emails at two o'clock in the morning. If I was awake, I'd turn my phone on. Now I don't do that so much. Um I think I've got a fly buzzing around that keeps landing on my leg. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

So for you then, I mean, I don't think that those I don't think boundaries are normal or abnormal. I think that they are personal, you know. And like that quote says, you know, knowing what you're responsible for gives you freedom. If you have decided uh that that is the way that you want to run your business life and it works for you and it isn't having a negative impact uh on you know any other aspect of your life, then those are what you would call proper boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

I do definitely have boundaries, and I know we're gonna get into it, but I do also think that they're part of um my personality, my AUDHD, you know, autism and um ADHD, um that make me have those boundaries. Okay. And and you know, as you know, um I'm finding out more and more about this. Um I'm now realizing that that's why I have had those boundaries. Right. Okay. Well, that's interesting. There were boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yeah, exactly. And I think as you are on this um sort of I'm gonna use the journey word, but yeah, as you are on this journey of self-discovery about what it means to you to to um to find out those that you're you have ADHD in autism, I think that you will be you will be probably exploring those boundaries and seeing what's appropriate and what works for you. Definitely so would it be useful if we thought a little bit about how we set boundaries? Yeah. Yeah, okay. So I'm gonna take you into take you into my confidence here and and tell you about how I feel about jigsaws, okay?

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Do you like a jigsaw? I love a jigsaw. We have an annual Christmas jigsaw fest.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

And and this Lee is why I will never be spending Christmas with you.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

We get so hung up on our jigsaws that we forget to have Christmas dinner.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Really? Yeah. And like do you do these sort of massive 1500 piece ones and things?

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah, I think the last one we had was 5,000.

unknown 10:10

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

So you've got 5,000 pieces of coloured cardboard on a table in front of you. How do you start to tackle that?

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Well, I'm very different to the boys. Okay. The boys just empty it out and just start. Okay. Yeah. Um, and they they build a little bit here and a little bit there. Me that does my head in. I like to sort all the straight edges and do the straight edges first. Okay. Get that done. And then I colour sort them. Right. Okay. And and I like it clear, and I like um a um so we have this big huge tray, and in that, you know, this board, and it's got little trays. Okay. And then so you can put all the pieces in those trays and sort them. So like you'd put all the sky bits together or whatever. Yeah, and that's what I do. And so I get I how it usually works. In the morning, I get up and I'm sorting things out. By the afternoon, they've unsorted everything. That's not how they like to work.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Well, I mean, it sounds like you've you've got your technique nailed. I mean, I am absolutely rubbish at jigsaw puzzles. I have no patience. I don't understand I don't understand how people get pleasure out of it.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

I can't How can we even be friends?

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Because I'm professionally patient.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

I'm I'm not sure I can be friends with somebody who doesn't like jigsaws.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

I Lee, I just can't help it. It's just it's it's a it's a personality flaw, I know.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

You know, I would have made you have done it if you'd come to Spain, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Yeah, probably. Probably. I really I don't like jigsaws and I don't like nature programs. So I'm a terrible person, but I absolutely have no patience to turn all those pieces over to to sort them into grass or sky or all that malarkey, put aside the edge pieces, but what I do know a lot of people who love them, and when I watch them, they do what you do, and they do all those border bits first, you know. They get the they get the sort of outline in the picture or the boundary of the picture um sort of established first, and um that the reason why that's important, I guess, particularly if you're working in a sort of defined space, is a 5,000-piece jigsaw must be pretty big.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

It is. That's why we don't have Christmas dinner because the tables are Yeah, because you can't get it on the table.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

So those border pieces around the edge of the jigsaw, they're establishing the size and the shape. I mean, because like you don't even you can have funny shape jigsaws now, can't you? Like circular jigsaws or hexagonal or something.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

And you can and even it gets even better than that. Some of the pieces can be different shapes, like shapes of animals or shapes of um um landmarks, like oh right, that fit in within the picture.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Oh, yeah. That is quite clever. I I'll give you that. That's just quite clever. So once you've got those those boundaries established, everything else has to fit within that, doesn't it? Yeah, you know, and so when I talk about boundaries with my coaching clients, we we use their personal values, so what matters to them most, we kind of use those like the outside of the jigsaw puzzle. Okay, so having um knowing what those those values are, we can sort of say here's the framework into which everything else has to fit. Okay. Yep. So and here where here's where you have to do some work, Lee. Yeah. What would thinking about your values, what would the borders of your jigsaw be? What you know, if you were gonna put sort of four values around to make this boringly rectangular jigsaw puzzle, what would your values be?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Okay, um I want to say in no particular order. Okay. Okay, um, but the one the the thing that's at the very top of my list is timekeeping. Timekeeping, okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Does my head in people are late? Okay, so punctuality really, really matters to you.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah, and I'm not talking about a couple of minutes here and there. Yeah, you know, I am flexible, I think I'm very flexible and adaptable, but I'm talking ridiculously late. Yeah, okay. And not even letting you know they're late. Um, but it's not just about when people you that you're meeting, it's when uh train doesn't arrive on time or or show doesn't start on time. It's I like my schedules. Um, and that's why you know when I create an event for Wellshot, I have a schedule that this is what time we're moving groups. Yeah. This is what time we're meeting. And if you're not there when we're meeting, we'll wait five minutes, but then it's your responsibility to come and find us.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

So that sounds like a really because you have to well, yeah, because it's about respecting the people that have arrived on time. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Yeah, yeah. That's the thing about punctuality, isn't it? Yeah, it it's sort of it's an you know, inevitably, some of us are late sometimes through no fault of our own. But in this day of technology, we can at least let people know. Um, but yeah, if you're just habitually late, you're kind of saying my time's more important than yours, because you can just hang around and wait for me. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

And I should point out that it's it's those people that are habitually late, that it's every single time.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So there's there's one side of your jigsaw then punctuality, timekeeping. What else? Don't sit at my desk.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Don't sit at my desk.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Unless I've asked you to, or you've asked permission, and definitely don't use my stationery. I I have a pot of stationery for other people and a pot for mine.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Do you? Do you have like a this is an other people pen pot?

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

And you must not mess with mine.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yeah. I have literally when somebody has asked to borrow a pen, whether I'm in my office or out and about, I look through my pen pot or my pencil case and which one do I want to let them use? But you see, that's what I'm talking about. I don't know whether that's my ADHD autistic trait.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Well, I haven't I have no idea on that one, but um, I'm just trying to come up with a one-word boundary for um for that uh value for you there.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

I suppose it's like ownership. Yeah. Respect my personal space, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Yeah. Okay, well let's go with that. Respect my personal space. Yeah. Well, respect me, I guess. Okay. So we all know that if we ever pop into the world office, don't ask to borrow a pen and certainly don't sit at your desk.

unknown 18:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Unless you've given us express permission in advance. Okay. And not to touch anything or move anything around.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

No. So Neil will be laughing at this because he gets to sit at my desk.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Does he leave it in a good condition? Yeah, he does. Doesn't like change the mouse settings or anything like that. No, good.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

No, no. Good, good, good.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

I use it my mouse left-handedly and I get really annoyed when people sit down and change it to a right-handed mouse.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah. Neil will be laughing at this because um, you know, it Neil will know my boundaries more than anybody else, I think. You know, when it comes to work, you know, he's always trying to chain um train me into doing things a little bit differently, but I have my way of doing it. And each time he comes, there's a little bit more advancement.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Little by little.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Okay, so you have some more boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, punctuality, respect my space. What else?

SPEAKER_01 19:12

I'm not a rule breaker.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

So I have a I have a high sense of fairness and justice and what's right and wrong. Yeah, I like that. Like, it annoys me when I see a camper van um doing overnight camping on a little on a road. Yeah. You know, where we live, you know, it's by the sea. And I can understand it, but it says no overnight camping. And and it does really get on my nerves because I think, you know, there's lots of campsites, and it's like putting money back into the economy when you go and stay at a campsite. I can understand why people don't, but yesterday we couldn't, we couldn't, we struggled to get home. We were having to weave in and out of people parked by the sea.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Well, I mean, for anybody who's who's listening in the future, we're recording this the day after one of the hottest weekends we've had in the UK for years. I mean, I was just reading this morning that the temperature uh in England, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales was over 30 degrees in all four places. And that that didn't even happen in 1976 when we had a crazy long drought, you know. So it has been super hot this weekend. So I imagine getting to the sea has been a priority for a lot of people this weekend.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, and I and I totally get it, and it's nice, and it's a beautiful spot, but people don't people break the rules and don't respect other people. Yeah. So it really was a struggle, and and and to the point where I thought it was going to be quite dangerous because we didn't know if a little kid could be running out. Yeah, yeah. You know, we were doing less than 20, which is obviously the speed limit some some places in Wales. Yeah. You know, we were crawling. Um, but you know, I've seen on Facebook today that you know that cars have been towed, so there's been a lot of rule breaking. But I'm not a rule breaker.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Um so that's a boundary for you. Don't don't break the rules.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Yeah. Okay. And what about the the fourth side of your boundary, jigsaw? What would that be?

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah, so I have a routine every morning. I come in step by step methodically, I do certain things. Before I do the next step. But I don't know if that's a boundary or whether that's part of my autism and my ADHD.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

I don't think it m matters sort of what the um what the motivator is for that. If it's something that matters to you, something that you really value to have that that level of sort of routine and personal organization, then I think it's a relevant um boundary. You know, again, it's not one that has a negative impact on other people. Um, you know, it's just it's part of who you are, and it's something that matters matters to you. So I think if you can build around those four things, um, you know, boundaries that work for you, then that's perfectly acceptable.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

It also helps me build habits. So I'm trying very hard to stay focused. Sometimes I can be really hyper-focused, and and that's just as unuseful as being focused sometimes. So I'm trying to be on a more even keel and balance it out a bit. Um, but I'm trying to build some good habits around the things that I do for our business, do for shop, and I'm building those into my step-by-step um routine in the morning. So knowing that I've got that done. Yeah? Yeah. And Avian will back me up on this if he disrupts me or asks me about a problem that he's got or something that he wants to talk about before I've got myself set up for the day. It doesn't take very long. You know, um, you know, one of the things is making a coffee. That coffee's got to be made. Um, but if I don't get myself all opened up and settled to get on with my work, uh, it throws my whole day off kilter. And arriving at a different time as well. So I arrive at my off and my desk seven o'clock every morning without fail, unless something else is going on or happening. Yeah. Yeah. When I have to, when we decide that we are coming in later, so say nine o'clock or something, which is is normal time for most people, isn't it? That throws my whole day out. I I feel discombobulated.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Yeah, yeah. And that's I mean, that's a pretty good way um of thinking about it. So if you if you're listening to this at home right now and you're thinking I'm not sure about I'm not sure about my values, um, then I can uh point you towards a blog post I wrote called Our Values Make Us Different, and we'll put put a note in the um a link in the show notes for that. But also just like Leah's just described, if there is a situation where um that where something not happening in the way that you that you'd like it to happen makes you feel sort of uncomfortable or resentful, whether that's through, you know, other people's behaviour or or attitudes or um you know just something that's within you, that's a pretty good indicator of a boundary that matters. Um, you know, so if you you know yours all fit into that Lee, you know, the punctuality, respecting my space, um, justice, what's right or wrong, and this idea of you know, you having you've created your own routine, you know, and and one of the important things about basing your boundaries on on your values is that you are looking after your own well-being. You're helping yourself to be consistent. You know that um, you know, think about decision making. If there is, you know, I I know you well enough to know that if there is a decision to be made and there's an easy route, but it's slightly kind of rule-breaking, or a more difficult route, but it's perfectly kind of fair and just, I know that without a shadow of a doubt, that you will always choose the more difficult way because it's the right way, it's the proper way to do something.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I do worry that sometimes I can be more, you know, too assertive when it comes to my rule breaking or schedules and punctuality. Um can you be too assertive? Is that me being too, you know, when I'm talking about when other people are involved, like running an event, and we've got to stick to these times. Can I be too assertive and too too bossy? And so I get I overthink about what they will be thinking of me, and the people pleaser in me worries about that. But my overriding, everything is overridden, but the worry and the overthinking, because I really have those strong, you know, boundaries, values, and yeah, feelings.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

But I think, like you said, you know, there's a reason for those, isn't there? So the punctuality thing matters because you know, on a on a very sort of basic one-to-one level, it is about how we respect each other's time. Um, but also sort of from a business point of view, if you're arranging an event and you've got 10 delegates coming and nine of them are there and the models are ready, and they the other sort of um your other team members are there and everybody is ready to go, and you know, somebody else is randomly running late, they are it's it's not just kind of a bit annoying, it's actually spoiling the experience for other people who have either paid money to be there or you are paying in terms of the other professionals that who are there. Um, you know, so I think if you if if you are clear with people about what your boundaries are and the reasons for those boundaries, you know, the the event starts at 9 30, please arrive at nine o'clock. So you've got plenty of time to settle in, get yourself a drink, say hello to a few people, we will start shooting at 9.30. You know, people understand what what that means and what what the ramifications are if they if they don't show up for that. So I think sometimes establishing boundaries is difficult. Um, maintaining and reinforcing them can sometimes be difficult, but it's worth it. Um, you know, when you you know, you might use those boundaries as as a way of saying, you know, I can't commit to this thing you're asking me to do because I'm fully committed elsewhere, you know. So, or you know, I'm not the right person to do that because I don't have that experience. But let me introduce you to Michelle, she's really good at that kind of thing, yeah. Or whatever, you know, it helps you decide what's a priority for you. So, you know, maintaining your routine means that you get every day off to a good start, uh, and then you know that throughout the day you're going to get the work done that really matters to you.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

And I think people will also respect you for that, you know, especially if you say, I can't do that, or I don't do that because I I don't know how, but I can introduce you to Michelle. People respect you, don't they? So um I, you know, people have said to me as a compliment that I run a tight ship, and that's why they like it, because they know that you know there's gonna be they're gonna get their their fair amount of shooting time, yeah. Um, and or their fair amount of one-to-one. So while it might be quite um rigid, although we can be flexible, you know, if things go wrong and adapt adaptable, yeah. Um, but because they know how I work, they know it's going to be quite highly organized.

unknown 30:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

And that they're going to have a better experience because of it.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Yeah. And you have you are using your knowledge and your experience of you know, previous events, you know, events you've been to run by other people to create that environment for them. So then you establish these. It's almost like that the event itself has some boundaries, as you know, it's not just Lee's personal boundaries, it's like this is what happens on a well-shot event. This is how this is how we are with each other, this is you know how we spend our time. We do make sure that everybody gets a fair crack at the butt but I've built that off the back of my own personal boundaries and values. Yeah, but you I expect as well, you've built into that the um the values and the boundaries of your business partner, Evian, because you know he's key to the success of those events. So between the two of you, you are aware of what will create this really great framework in which to create a photographic event.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

I think Avian and I, when it comes to those boundaries, we're actually dead, dead level with each other. Brilliant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

And that really helps as well, doesn't it? Because you understand why those things matter. So you don't have that problem of him kicking against the boundaries you set. Now, you know, somebody listening to this might be thinking, well, that sounds brilliant. Lee and everyone obviously get on really well together. But, you know, I work in a team with lots of different people and it and it can be quite hard sometimes. You know, I know that it really, really matters to me that um, you know, I'm available for my children's bedtime routine. You know, I want to be there for bath time and I want to read them a story. But I also know that some of the colleagues in my team, you know, they don't have children or their children are older and they think nothing of working, you know, to seven o'clock at night or whatever. And that can make you feel really uncomfortable because you don't want to feel that you're not a team player, um, you know, or that you don't care about the work, you know. But I think just like you were saying, there's a reason that punctuality is important to you, you know, that person could say to their colleagues, you know, you, you know, I've got a young family, now we're at home three days a week working from home. I really want to have a hard stop to my working day. You know, I want to at six o'clock, I am going to shut down my laptop. You know, I'm not going to be taking calls or or emails after that point. Um, if there is truly an emergency, then do phone me. And if I see your number come up on my phone, I will I will know this is a you know properly something which requires my attention and I will get back to you as soon as possible. But my boundary is six o'clock, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I'm unavailable. You know, now that might cause a bit of discomfort and disgruntlement to start with, but actually, if you don't maintain something like that, you know, the the impact is you know on your family, on you, you'll just feel resentful towards your colleagues and stuff, won't you? Just like you know, you feel um you don't like it when somebody sort of crosses the line of rule breaking or whatever, you know, it's it makes us feel really horrible inside, disengaged, and you know, and just sort of in a work sense, I think it can make you feel kind of less committed to stuff because you just feel like people are taking the Mickey out of you if you work, you know, 18 hours a day.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

I'm trying to think back for when I worked in a you know, for an organization, yeah, the foreign office. Yeah. Very different to me being self-employed now with just Avian and I, basically, you know, apart from when we have a an event and we've got other well shop people, team people, and it's it's very different because I'm in charge now.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

When I worked for the Foreign Office and, you know, things like the Gulf War kicking off or the Fiji coup and or the Rainbow Warrior or whatever, you know, stuff like that. I wasn't in control, was I? Maybe that's why I didn't fit in. Maybe that, you know, looking back now, maybe that's why it, you know, it never felt quite right for me. Um, but very different. So, and then that's about talking to your team managers, isn't it? So I don't know, I I couldn't imagine working for somebody else now because they wouldn't be able to put up with me for a start.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

But you have had people come alongside you and and work with you for um, you know, either sort of short periods of time or or on a kind of freelancy basis. And you must therefore be establishing boundaries between you and them, and also having to respect that. This is the thing about when we have boundaries, we have to respect that other people have them too, you know. So just because you want to answer emails, you know, into the evening, I know that you don't do it at two o'clock in the morning anymore, or that you know, you don't want to take a day off. I know that you fully respect the fact that some of the people that you work with do want to take a day off. You know, they do, you know what it's like when when I go away, I switch everything off, you know, and I'll and I give myself 15 minutes a day when I will sort of have a look at my email and reply to anything. But for the other 23 hours, 45 minutes, I am not thinking about work, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

What about bringing somebody in like Jen or you, Neil, Derek, the um, you know, sometimes does some work for us. Um, I think I'm very respectful. I would put their needs over mine, especially if they were giving up their time to come and to you know, come to landed know or do a Zoom. If they're giving up their time, I'm absolutely going to put myself in that uncomfortable situation. Um, I might not feel comfortable, especially if there's a lot of people around. And you know, when we went to Spain, we had lots of people doing lots of different jobs, but I was the one that was in the middle of it all. Yeah. Felt very uncomfortable and um very discombobulated again, felt very, but because they were all giving up their time and doing stuff to help me and us, I had to be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

But the good thing is that you you have also learnt from that experience, haven't you? And I know that you would do some things differently next time. And I think that's a very important thing to remember as well, is that just because you know your boundaries are in certain places today, it doesn't mean they'll be in that same place next year or in six months' time or whatever. You know, that's I suppose that's quite why I quite like the idea of boundaries as these sort of fence posts with wire, like I was saying, we've got in our garden. Because if necessary, we could uproot them, you know, if we find the boundaries in the wrong place, um, you know, or in the case of these wooden fence posts, it's gone a bit rotten and it's going to fall over or whatever. We can redraw those boundaries, we can reinforce those boundaries, um, you know, to uh to make sure that they best serve where we're at now. Boundaries that were relevant when you worked for the Foreign Office are completely irrelevant to you as a business owner.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Absolutely. I was on their time frame and you know, their time scale.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Now I can, yeah, I make the rules.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

So I think that when we when we look at something like this, when we look at kind of, you know, why am I uncomfortable in a particular situation or why am I starting to feel resentful about the way my colleagues treat me? And and we realise that a boundary is is possibly being crossed. It's a really good idea to do an exercise like this to try and create that kind of the boundaries, you know, of your jigsaw puzzle based on your values, and then sort of it's much easier to say, you know, all the situations in my work and my life have to fit within those borders. Does that make sense? Definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Good way of looking at it.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

And I think it is such uh so true to say that this, you know, this isn't you don't do it once and then it's all sort of forever. This is something that you have to keep on doing, and it, you know, it will take it will take courage, it will take confidence to keep saying to people, this is an important boundary to me, or you know, I'd you know, I'd like to talk to you about you know what time we meet on a Friday because it runs on into the evening and that's having an impact on my family life or whatever. It takes courage to do that. Um, but if we don't do it, you know, we will be miserable, or we will be overworked, we will be overwhelmed, and that is absolutely no place to be, is it?

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Yeah, I think as people we feel guilty for saying no, don't it's quite sad.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Well, I suppose in one sense it sort of shows that actually we we really want you know, we want to be outward focused, we want to help people, we want to be kind, whatever, but but what we need is everybody to want that same thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

You know, you can't we need to be givers and takers, yeah, not just givers or takers.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, really agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 40:37

Yeah. So that's an interesting thought then. So, you know, set up your boundaries in a way that it allows you to both give and take um in an appropriate an appropriate way.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Yeah. One thing I've learned from this conversation, I didn't realise that how bound and you know, doing all the research, I didn't realise how boundaries were so based around our values. Hmm. I I hadn't thought of it in that way.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that that I don't know that that is everybody's opinion, but it's certainly mine. And I think it fits in, I think it fits in with that Henry Cloud quote about you know boundaries defining us. I think our I think our values define us. So I think you put those two things together and you and you end up with something which hopefully is workable and strong and useful and beneficial.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And it's interesting. I think we could talk for hours on values and boundaries and everything else that shapes us as a person.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Yeah, personality-wise, yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And you know, here are Lee and I are busy agreeing with each other. If you're listening to this and you disagree with us, we would love to hear about that. Tell us, tell us what you think. We're always interested in different perspectives. If you're listening to this and you've just thought of a, you know, a tiny boundary that you would like to create, um, tell us about that too. Um, we're always interested to hear what people are getting from the podcast. Please, if you have time, share this with a colleague or a friend or somebody in your family. Um, you can drop us a review, um, that would be fantastic. Um, or just get in touch. We will always be pleased to hear from you, as long as you don't interrupt Lee's morning routine. So, you know, if you could just email later in the day, that would be good.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Yeah. And if you're ever, ever flying with me, just know I'm always at an airport five hours earlier than need to be.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

So we've talked about what boundaries are, we've talked about why they matter, and we've talked about how we could set them. And uh, we've also learnt that um please don't ever buy me a jigsaw. Well, if you do, I promise I will send it to Lee.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Oh, and did you know that that these jigsaws that have these funny little shapes, sometimes the straight, you know, have the straight edges that we've talked about.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

There's one particular make of jigsaw that doesn't have um the normal straight edge. So it will be a straight edge once it's built, but there could be a piece with like a little pointy bit. Well, that just sticks out. That just sticks out, but into into making it a straight edge.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Right, okay. If you just created my nightmare scenario with a jigsaw now.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

So it's like you can't even separate those bits into straight edges because there might be bits that are part of the straight edge that aren't straight edges.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Okay. Well, on that note, Lee, I'm gonna say goodbye to you. You wanna come for Christmas this year? I'm gonna say goodbye because there's only one thing that's gonna solve my anxiety over jigsaws now, and it's a good strong cup of coffee. So uh thank you everybody for listening. Thank you, Lee, for yet another uh fun and interesting conversation. And um, I look forward to our next episode.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Brilliant, thank you. It's been really eye-opening, and I'm going to make myself a cup of coffee now and get back into my morning routine. Bye, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Bye.