Fitting In

Courage and Confidence Podcast – Season 3, Episode 5: "Fitting In"

What happens when one photograph online sends your thoughts spiralling? In this wonderfully honest and personal episode, Lee shares how a single image from an event she'd chosen not to attend triggered a cascade of self-doubt — and asks the question so many of us quietly wrestle with but rarely say out loud: would I have fitted in?

What follows is a warm, candid and genuinely thought-provoking conversation in which Michelle gently unpicks the difference between fitting in and belonging — and why that distinction matters more than we might think.

Drawing on the research of Brené Brown, the poetry of Maya Angelou, and a rather unexpected detour into Enid Blyton and The Faraway Tree, Lee and Michelle explore:

• The difference between fitting in and belonging and why one costs you everything while the other asks nothing of you
• How a single image on social media can trigger a whole chain of limiting beliefs about age, appearance and self-worth
• The Faustian bargain of fitting in Brené Brown's powerful insight that if you win approval by pretending to be someone you're not, the hustle never stops
• Strong back, soft front, the courage to stand firm in who you are while remaining open, honest and vulnerable
• Why social media gives us an illusion of belonging and how the polished images we see (and post) may be doing more harm than we realise
• Lee's lightbulb moment and realising that the only thing standing between her and that event was a pair of clean jeans and a bit of mascara
• Those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind and why the people around Lee's birthday barbecue won't care one bit about her Crocs

This episode is a reminder that the most exhausting thing in the world is trying to be something you're not — and that the people who are truly your people will never ask you to.

🎧 Listen now — and ask yourself: where have you been trying to fit in, when you already belong?

Find Lee at:

• Website: https://welshotimaging.co.uk/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leeatwelshot/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lee.iggulden

Find Michelle at:

• Web: https://www.thinkingspacecoaching.com/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thinkingspacecoaching/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cmichellerogers/

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to season three of Courage and Confidence with Lee Iggledon and Michelle Rogers, the podcast in which Lee and I build up our own courage and confidence while helping you to do the same thing with some handy tips, techniques, and some inspiring stories from some very special guests. I'm not gonna try and do an American accent because that would be bad for all of us.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

I think for the most part it comes down to absolute pure laziness.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Hello Lee, how are you today? I'm very well. How are you? I'm good. The sun is shining, all is well with the world.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

So I'm gonna start off by saying that all Michelle knows about this episode is it's titled Fitting In. I asked Michelle if this was something we could discuss due to something that happened to me last week. I should also point out that these feelings and thoughts were totally mine of the making. They were my very, very limiting thought beliefs, and in no way whatsoever did I or do I have any proof that this would have been the case. So Michelle, are you intrigued? Want to know the thoughts that went into my head the moment I saw a photo online?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Oh, I'm absolutely intrigued. As you were doing that little intro there, I could feel butterflies in my stomach. I was kind of getting nervous for you. So come on, spill the tea. What's happened?

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Okay. Well, nothing bad has happened. Good. And and it's and I'm okay. It's just I had these thoughts and they were instant the moment I saw a photograph. So give you some context. There was this event that I really, really, really wanted to go to. Okay. It was about two and a half hours away from my home, which it's very rare to have an event so close to where I live. Normally have to go to Newcastle or Edinburgh or down south, and you know, whatever. Um, but but this was quite close, and I would have gone. It was also more money than I would have paid to go to a day event. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

But they weren't the reasons I didn't go. I didn't go because of everything that's going on with Wellshot and personally, um, and you know, past me was thinking of future me about what could be happening around this time, and I didn't want to add any more pressure on. So that was the only reason I didn't book onto this event. Okay. Okay. Yep. But I knew I was gonna have serious, serious FOMO when I saw it all unfolding on Instagram in the stories. FOMO, fear of missing out, yeah. I knew I was gonna, I don't know, be even jealous, maybe. Um, but yeah, because I really wanted to be that. It wasn't a training event, it was more a group of people um around a table working, and it was sort of a um a strategy, um, sort of working working, yeah, um getting help off each other, yeah. Yeah so I knew I would have been out of my felt out of my depth, but that there was a photo that they posted, and it was of um a lovely photo, and they all looked lovely and beautiful, immaculate even, and that's when I thought, oh, I wouldn't have fitted in. I'm a scruff, I'm older, and and these are totally my thoughts, but they would never have made me feel anything but welcome. I know that. I know the people that were, you know, I know of the people that were there. Yeah, and um, and but all day I thought about uh thought about it, and it was oh, I'm sort of glad I didn't go now because I would have been really uncomfortable. And yeah, maybe I would have for the first, you know, half an hour, but I soon would have got rid of that feeling once I started listening to what people were saying, and you know, you know, I like learning and and listening to things, so it was sort of totally irrational, but I definitely, definitely had that feeling of oh, I wouldn't have fitted into that.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah. Wow. And how are you feeling about that now, a few days later?

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Um if I'm honest, it's probably spurred me into, well, Lee, do something about it if you think you're a scruff. Yeah. Um, but also totally irrational, you know. I can't do anything about my age. Um, I can't do anything about the way I speak or the things I well, you know, I can do things about the things I know because I can learn more. But um, but to it's to I they wouldn't they wouldn't have even given me a second thought, would they? In a nice way.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

I mean, well, you mean that yeah, they wouldn't they wouldn't have been judging you.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Yeah, I mean, A, they haven't got the time, and B, you know, it's I wouldn't have been that important to them. Well, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah, but I mean, you would have been, I'm sure there would have been people there who would have been delighted to meet you, but you have to remember that probably everyone else in that group was thinking the same thing as well. You know, we're so busy sort of thinking about how we're coming across that we're not necessarily you know thinking, ah, that woman over there, she's got a funny accent, you know, is busy thinking about themselves.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah, I know it's but I definitely yeah, it was the first thought that popped into my head.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

And that's interesting because do you want to fit in?

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Oh I don't I don't want to fit in so much that it will change who I am. I don't want to be something I'm not, you know. Um you know, I like my personality, and I figure, well, if other people don't like my personality, then they don't have to be with me, do they? They don't have to hang around with me.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Um they're not your people, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

But I would have wanted to fit in enough to be comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Okay, okay. The reason I ask you that is I'm sure you will have heard of Dr. Brene Brown.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Who did I think one of the most popular TED talks ever, the one about vulnerability. Um, and she has been researching this exact topic of fitting in for absolutely years. And um, I love to read her work because it is properly researched, you know, that's her career here, but also it's very human and it's very easy to sort of just get into and and read. Um and I think you're right, we are we are made to belong, to form communities, aren't we? You know, whether that's a sort of tiny community of sort of two or three of you or a bigger group, you know. But there's a difference, uh Brene Brand says, and and I agree with her, between fitting in and belonging. Okay. Um, so fitting in we're gonna go back to my one of my favourite not leisure activities, jigsaws. Um you can try you're an expert jigsaw person, you can try and fit a piece into a hole, can't you? It's the wrong piece. You can do your dandas to get it into that space, but it's never gonna fit in. The only way it fit in is if you chopped a bit off it or stuck a bit different bit on it or whatever. So it would be completely you'd be changing the nature of the piece.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

So to me, that's how I think about fitting in. Okay, I've got to change myself, like you just said, you've got to change yourself to kind of conform to some standard or or whatever, and and that's what you don't want to do. Um I think what you're talking about is belonging with that bunch of people, you know. They're clearly a bunch of people, I'm guessing, that you've met online and you've maybe met some of them face to face.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

I've only met a couple of them online, okay? A couple of them in person, right? But I know a lot of them through the online space.

unknown 9:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

I know who they are. Yeah. So fitting in, like you say, you know, you wouldn't want to change who you are, but sometimes we try to do that, you know, so we don't share our opinions on something, or you know, we kind of go along with the crowd. Um, you know, when you were a kid, if you did something naughty and um you said, Oh, well, you know, um Joanne told me to do it, or whatever. Did your parents ever say to you, if they told you to jump off a cliff, would you? Yeah. You know, it's that it's that idea, isn't it, of kind of we want to gain approval rather than being who we really are sometimes? Yeah, yeah. And then we get caught up in a trap because then you're having to behave like that forever.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yeah. And remember when I went to Edinburgh for that marketing conference, you know, and I felt out of my depth there. I think I know I felt uncomfortable walking in, um, but I didn't feel like I didn't fit in or I didn't belong. But I think that was because it was a huge packed room, you know. Okay. Couple of hundred people in there, maybe more. But this was very small and intimate. And and I know I could have stood my own. Um, you know, I might have started off being a bit quiet, and the more confident and comfortable I felt, I would have joined in. Um I don't know if I would have had anything of value to add. Um, but yeah, it's it's a long time since I've and maybe that's because I've been working with you and we've done this podcast, but I was really aware of those feelings and those thought beliefs. And you know, I even said to me, Oh Lee, that's a limiting thought belief. You know, ridiculous. If you're gonna think like that and you'll you'll never do anything. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

But it's interesting, isn't it, when we have those limiting beliefs, is they're normally trying to tell us something. You know, and you already said about you there are things that you could change if you decided you wanted to.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Yeah, like not being a scruff or you know, you know, doing my nails or doing my makeup. It's not that I don't like doing those things. Sometimes because I'm just working behind my desk in the office, I can't be bothered. You know, is another word I could use for that, but I'll use it. Um, but you know, I can do it and I don't mind doing it, and I like doing it, and I always feel good when I've done it.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, so you that's the more important thing, isn't it? It's about do it because it makes you feel good, yeah. Rather than it makes some some random people like you. Yeah, yeah, you know, and if I remember correctly, when you went to that event in Edinburgh, you had the kind of big stuff going on. But then wasn't it when you went out for lunch um and you got chatting with uh as I call her the other Michelle. The other Michelle in your life, Michelle Newman. Hi Michelle, if you're listening. Um, you know, and you and she built up a really great connection there that has turned into, you know, not just a working relationship, but a friendship, from what I can see.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah. So it sort of solidifies or or um oh Michelle, I can't think of the word, that um you attract the people that that you get on with, don't you? So if I was talking, if I met you at a conference and you didn't warm to me or like me or or whatever, you you'd be polite and you'd you know you'd have chit-chat, but you wouldn't take me away to have, you know, oh let's go and have a coffee or a wine or whatever. So, you know, the people that you get on with, you gravitate to each other, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Or am I being totally not sure if I'm even explaining this right, but no, I think I think that you are, and I think actually, let me share with you something interesting that that I listened to. So you already mentioned Brene Brown. Um I'm also a big fan of Elizabeth Day and her podcast How to Fail. Have you ever listened to that? No, I haven't. So she interviews um uh you know celebrities or writers or or you know, whatever, and she asks them to bring to the conversation three things in their life at which they feel they they have failed, and they talk about that together. And uh in uh one series, she actually talks to Brene Brown, and she's very excited about this because you know she really likes her work, and um, I remembered this bit from that podcast, and so I just went to get the um the transcript for it. Um, so I'm just gonna read you a little chunk of that. That's okay. I'm not gonna try and do an American accent because that would be bad for all of us. Um say this is Brene talking. Let's say I'm new to London and I'm lonely. I don't have a friend group, and you invite me to a book club. And I'm like, okay, I'm so excited. I'm going to Elizabeth's book club. We're reading this new mystery, it's great. I know Elizabeth, and I know her friends are kind of like this, and I know how they dress, and I think their politics are like this. So I'm gonna do whatever it takes to fit into this book club. So I get to book club, I kind of dress like you all, I keep the political conversation in tune with where I think you all are. I hated the political conversation in tune with where I think you all are, and I hated the book. But as soon as I hear everyone loves the book, I'm like, yeah, it was so good. I was riveted to the last moment. You know, I'm trying to fit in. I'm changing who I am because of my desperate need for connection. And I don't really hear from you again. I don't get invited to the next book club, and things just have kind of fade out as they do. The result of that experience, 99 times out of a hundred, is going to be shame. I am not good. Something is wrong with me. I'm not worthy of connection or friendship, something is wrong. Same scenario, but I'm getting dressed for the book club and I'm going over to your apartment. I tell myself one thing, you know what, Brene, just be yourself, wear what you like, share your opinion, honestly. So I get there and I see I stand out a little bit, and someone else says it was the best mystery I ever read. What did you think, Brene? And I'm like, I thought the ending was so terrible, it was so hard to get through. I didn't love the ending. To be honest, I get home and I don't hear from you. I don't get invited back. I might feel disappointment, I might feel a little sadness, but I don't feel shame because my goal was not to fit in at the cost of betraying myself. My goal was to be myself, and so when I get home, whether I hear back from you or not, I've done what I set out to do. And I'll tell you the Faustian bargain here is in the first scenario, if I'm trying to fill my need for belonging by fitting in, and you do call back, and I've kind of become like you and talked like you and agreed with everybody in your group, that hustle is never over. I have to keep pretending and in the process portray myself and any belonging that requires us to portray who we are, what we believe, and what we think is counterfeit, uh, and what we think is counterfeit and a very short walk to shame. Yeah. I think that's a like a really that's what I mean about her sharing personal stories. We've all had an experience like that, haven't we? Yeah. You know, whether it's at school or whether it's um, you know, later on in life at in the workplace, you know, everybody's going out to do drinks, or I'm sure when you worked in the diplomatic service, or what was it, diplomatic foreign office? Yeah, yeah. I'm sure you know there were social events and things like that that you felt you had to go to.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Yeah, there were, and you you were you you were really told that you had to go to them. I think now looking back on it in hindsight, what I know about my um my autistic side of me is um I don't often try to fit in.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Um, apart from you know, the makeup and not look looking scruffy, yeah. But if I'd gone to that book club and I didn't like the ending of that book, I would have just told them I didn't like the end of that book. And I think that's why I've never fitted in, um, or in some groups, or I've felt that I don't belong because or I've lost friends even because I am actually a bit too honest, maybe. Can you be a bit too honest? Um, but I am, I I like to say I am what you see is what you get. A caller's spade is a spade, and I'm honest, um, to the point of maybe being a bit uh, I don't know, mean, but because there's no point hang on a second, hang on a second.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

I'm sorry, I'm not gonna let you say that you're mean. That's because I'd haven't seen that in all the years I've known you and the conversations I've had with you and when I've been in group conversations or whatever, I've never heard you be mean.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't go out and say, oh God, your bum looks bigger than that, Michelle. You know, I'm not talking about that. But if so if um and if somebody had cooked a meal for me and I didn't and I didn't like it, or I couldn't eat something of it, I would just eat it and say thank you. So I'm not I'm I'm not that that harsh. But if somebody asks me if I want to go to a nightclub for an evening, I would say I can't think of anything worse. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Um that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Yeah. Um so so so then I am not included to those events anymore. Because and that's good, they just know me, and I don't mind them not knowing me. But this was this was something a little bit different. Um This is I wanted to belong.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's I mean, you know, you I mean what you're in you're only talking about the changing some sort of physical appearance, aren't you? You're you know, talking about sort of making a bit more effort. And I guess then the question would be why don't you feel that you are kind of worthy of making that it effort on yourself if it if it makes you feel better as you said it did, even when you're sitting behind your desk, you know, maybe it would give you great pleasure to look down at your freshly manicured nails. And you know, I would say you are you deserve that, you're worthy of that, um, regardless of what anybody else thinks.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Yeah, I think I think for the most part it comes down to absolute pure laziness, right? Yeah, okay, and and and um I'm being you know totally honest and vulnerable about that too, because I'm not really a lazy person, apart from when it comes to myself. Does that make any yeah? Um, I should say that um those thoughts. That I had, those limiting beliefs that I had were purely based on aesthetics and how the looks, yeah. And then and then came my age. Oh god, I'm a lot older. And then came, I bet you I'm not as brainy as them. So it's funny, isn't it? Knowledge was right down the bottom of the pile.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah. And yeah, I know if you'd been there, you would have had such a kind of creative and different way of looking at things that you probably would have made a really useful and valuable contribution to those discussions.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Yeah, and then and see now you've said that, now I'm worrying that oh maybe they just would have sounded dumb. See, it's weird, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah, but this does go, I mean, it it it does come back to that feeling of a lack of self-worth or a lack of self-esteem, or sometimes, doesn't it? And you know, you've been very honest in the in the past on the podcast about how your self-esteem weighs from time to time, and it feels like just that photograph last week just you know hit a bit of a nerve.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Yeah, but you know, we've got this courage and confidence podcast, and I'm beginning to realize and understand that courage and confidence is a big part of our lives, isn't it? Whether you're in business or not, it affects everything. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah, and I think you know, if you look around us, we're we're always comparing ourselves, we're always seeing what other people are doing. You know, we exist within these echo chambers, whether it's like a sort of you know, your social media um the sort of algorithm that shows you a certain amount of uh a certain type of content, or you know, you're in some kind of online groups where you know you might be a little bit of an outlier in that group, but you know, sometimes those things can actually give us um an illusion that we belong to something, and then then but actually what they're doing is inside we're feeling more isolated because we're like, Well, I think I belong to that group of people, but I'm not really sure because I can't be bothered to get my nails done, or I don't, you know, I don't look like them, I don't sound like them, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Yeah, you make a really good point because this is how social media can be bad for things, really, can't it? Because if I hadn't seen that picture, I would have happened, yeah. And now I'm thinking, well, how many photos do I post on social media? You know, like a group photo, um, and people are looking in and thinking, and how many people are watching thinking or looking and thinking, oh, I haven't got a camera like that. Oh, I won't know as much as them, they're not for me. So it's like what we're seeing isn't the whole true picture, is it? And sometimes social media could be off-putting. So we think we're promoting and marketing our business or what we're doing, but maybe we're actually putting people off. I'd never thought, I'd never ever thought of it like that way before.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

A friend of mine uh had a birthday over the weekend, and on her um Instagram stories, she had sort of sort of three or four stories, uh, three four pictures, you know, out for a lovely breakfast first thing. Then she went out and did her favorite sport, and then uh she uh then there was a shot of these beautiful flowers in her kitchen, you know, sort of birthday flowers, and then there was a shot of um, you know, sunny afternoon, um garden chairs. I think there was a glass of wine on the table or whatever, and a message just say happy birthday looks like you're having a fab day. And she replied, My Instagram life is perfect. You know, now it looks like she did have a fab day, and I hope she did, but that sort of suggests to me that you know maybe there was some other messy stuff in there that's in everybody's life, you know. But we don't put up the pictures of the sink full of dishes or the the laundry pile or you know, the stack of invoices that we have to do, do we? You know, we put up the fun things, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

And that reminds me of an email. Did I have was it an email, or did somebody tell me? Maybe it was actually both, maybe it was two different people, but they s the the the um premise was the same. They looked at our website and all they could see were really good looking images, perfect images, and they thought that um coming to us they'd have to be a great photographer, and that they were scared because their pictures didn't look like that. And just the same thing, isn't it? That isn't a group of people all looking, you know, absolutely gorgeous and lovely, that was you know, pictures of landscapes or seascapes or macro, and they felt because they knew that their pictures didn't actually look like that, um that they wouldn't have fitted in or wouldn't belong. Where in actual fact I went back and said, you know, that's you know, that's not straight out of the camera, that's gone through some editing, you know, develop you know, developing like you have to do a roll of you know, film. So I suppose yeah, it's it's funny, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 28:01

It's yeah it's interesting. Here's another quote for you.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Uh Maya Angelou, do you know her? The poet. Yes. Uh she said, You are only free when you realize that you belong no place, you belong every place, no place at all. The price is high, the reward is great. Oh wow. So really, she's not even saying find your people, she's saying belong, so str have your own sense of belonging so strongly, your own self-esteem, your own self-confidence, your own sort of self-awareness, your own kind of alignment with your own values, that wherever you are, you belong.

SPEAKER_04 28:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

You know, so you're sort of so sort of self-contained that you can belong wherever because you're not compromising yourself, you're not changing, you know, the the price is high. Yeah, you know, there will be times when you say, I don't want to come to a nightclub with you, you know, but I'd love to meet you for a cup of coffee tomorrow morning if you're not on over.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

I do that so many times. No, I don't want to go out for lunch with a group of girls, and and I can't hear, you know, I want to have a conversation with just one or two people where I can actually hear, you know, and ask them and be and you know, listen to them and engage properly. Yeah. And I've got it's funny that you should have said that because I'm now comfortable to be able to say that. And I've said that to some of my closest friends, you know, girls that I've known for years and years, and I, you know, and I've said I've learned so much about myself these last two years that I'm now comfortable enough to say to you, no, I don't want to go out for a an evening with, you know, 20 odd girls or or have a party or whatever. Um, I just want to go out for lunch with you.

unknown 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I've and that's what I've decided to do for my birthday with a zero at the end of it. Um this yeah. I don't want to party. I'm gonna have a barbecue. It's gonna be really informal. I'm gonna invite my closest friends, the people I love. I'm gonna tell them to bring their children, and you know, it's just gonna be sit wherever you want, eat whatever you want, because it will be like a barbecue buffet style, and that you know, you can talk to everybody and and be able to hear the person you're talking to. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

I like that.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

I just gotta hope the sun shines.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Well, you know, I want bunting. Is it gonna be wellshot green bunting? No, no, not on brand for your birthday. Well, I think then you'll like this other thing that Brene Brown talks about, which she talks about having a strong back but a soft front. Okay, but the strong back, and I'm as we're talking, I'm deliberately kind of sitting up straight here and sort of bracing myself. That's that's your courage, okay. So you're kind of arming yourself to you know go out there and and be with the world and you know, and and and stand out, but um, you know, still belong, know your place. Um, but the idea of the soft front is that you are prepared to do that and still be vulnerable and still be honest, and that's exactly what you just described. So you're you're having the courage to say to somebody, thank you so much for that invitation to that big event. That's not gonna work for me. Um, you know, I'm not at my best in that setting. I'd really love to spend some time with you. Are you free for lunch on Friday?

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Yeah, and I've got a quote for you now, and it's one that I think about all the time, and I think it's very apt here, and it goes something like um, those that mind know. Oh, hold on. Yeah, I'll start again. Those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And that's I mean, it's a bit of a tongue twister, isn't it? But it is it's such a it's such a good point because, you know, like you just said, the people you're inviting to the barbecue, the people that you love, the people that you care about, you know, they're not gonna mind. They're not gonna mind if you have to disappear off for half an hour because it's all become a bit much for your, you know, newly discovered autistic self. You know, if it all gets a bit overwhelming, you'll just take yourself off somewhere and you know, regulate for 20, 30 minutes and then come back and enjoy it. And they'll just be happy that you feel comfortable doing that because that will be a bunch of people with whom you belong.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yeah, and they're also not gonna mind if I just wanna wear my my jeans and my trainers, are they?

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Or your or even your infamous crocs.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Oh, yeah, with Welsh on maybe a bit on brand then.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yeah, maybe a little bit. So when you think about fitting in, and then you think about what I've said about belonging, do you see why I and other people think that those are two different things?

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Yeah, definitely. Because you know, going back to the jigsaw, you know when that bit of jigsaw belongs in that spot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Because sometimes you think, oh, if I you know, if somebody says, Oh, I'm a bit lonely or I haven't got any friends, one of the pieces of advice they're often given is join a group, you know, and that doesn't always work, does it? No, you know, I had a friend who went to the gym uh twice a week, every week for absolutely years. And I said to her once, you know, you must have met some nice people at the gym, and she's nope, nobody ever talks to you. You know, there are some people that come with their friend and and they'll chat away while they're on the treadmill or whatever. She said, But you know, apart from a sort of brief smile of you know, recognition, because you've seen that person working out there for the last five years or whatever, there's nothing like that. So it's possible to be in the middle of a crowd of people and feel really lonely, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 34:54

And that's one reason that well shot. I was whenever food was involved or sitting around tables was involved, I always was really strong on this rule that we had to have a round table so that nobody felt left out, you know. Yeah, or the other system I like is a you style boardroom, you know, because then everybody's you know part of it, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 35:28

How you can just with a little bit of practical arrangements kind of enable um you know, better conversations or um yeah, you know, because if you haven't been sitting at a long table with a group of people and you're at one end and you have to like you can't hear them, you can't see them, you you can't interact with them. The and if you're especially if you're at the end, the only person you can interact with is that other person, isn't it? Either to the left or the right of you.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Yeah, yeah. And actually, you make an interesting point about round tables, because I think some of the most sort of fun weddings I've ever been to, because quite often at a wedding you get put on a table with people you don't necessarily know, um, are the ones with round tables because you know it's slightly awkward to start with, but somebody will break the ice, you know, make a joke about something. And because you're sitting opposite each other, all opposite each other, it's much easier to kind of trade conversations, isn't it? And be involved with a a conversation, you know, that's wider than just the person to your left or the person to your right. Um, and you know, you can end up having a really great time just because you can actually all see each other, hopefully you can hear each other. Yeah, it's an easier way to sort of interact with people.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not have a great big floral display, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:01

That's a very, very good point, actually, isn't it? People don't candle, do they?

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Well, I hope they do. I hope they do now.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

I think.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

So there you go. So one photo online had my thoughts spiraling. But I've given myself a stiff talking to, and I'm thinking, well, if if all you're afraid of is looking at like a scruff Lee, get your nice clothes on. That's all that's stopping you, Lee.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

And that's an interesting point, isn't it? Because if you do do that and you, you know, you've done your nails and you've you've got your you know, best dress on, you've had your hair done or whatever, and you go and you still feel like that. You know, you actually go to the event and you still feel like I'm not sure I belong here, then there's something else going on, isn't it? So you know, it's interesting to sort of remove one layer and see what happens next.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Yeah. Can't remove the age layer. Absolutely nothing I can do about that one.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

No, but you can remove how you feel about that.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Yeah, I can, you know, change those limiting beliefs and think, well, look at all those years of experience I've got and help to give people.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yeah. I mean, imagine you're talking to somebody um, you know, who's a digital native who's grown up with, you know, iPads and and you know, the internet and never having to wait for a uh the next episode of a TV program or whatever, you know, and information always available. Um then when you meet somebody who hasn't grown up in that way and has worked in a different way. I mean, you and I can both remember fax machines. No.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Oh, oh no, I'm one further. I when I started at the foreign office, they still had had those old Gestetnas.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Oh, that you turned the handle on to like duplicate things.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Yeah, there you go. And ticket tape and ticket tape stuff, yeah, yeah. So I don't I think I think I remember when faxes came in. It wasn't, you know, Talixes were before then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

So, you know, we're different, we've got different experiences. You know, you've got I don't know, however many years, 35 years of working experience, you know, whereas the people somebody else around that table might have three years. Yeah. You know, yeah, and their experience uh um is useful and important too. There's no sort of age limitation on how useful that experience can be. Yeah. But yeah, I think it's you know, there's a there's an oft bandied about phrase, you know, why fit in when you were born to stand out, and people seem to think it was Dr. Seuss. I never know how to say his name, by the way. I think it's Dr. Seuss, but I don't know. Um, but it isn't actually in any of his books, but it does sound like the kind of thing that comes from, you know, the cat in the hat. And it's not a that you know, it's a useful enough phrase, isn't it? Why fit in when you were born to stand out? If it reminds you that your aim isn't fitting in, your aim is actually to belong.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Yeah, yeah. He had another quote too, um about being there's nobody be something like be you because there's nobody else that's you within you. Some something like that.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Yeah, yeah, I think that really is actually. Yeah, yeah. I can't remember. That might be in the places you go. I don't know. I didn't have Dr. Seuss books when I was a child.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

No, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Or beat Trick Potter deprived. I was all Narnia and Enid Blyton.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

Yeah, me too. I was a berg Enid Blyton.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

It's remarkable that we're so unscathed then.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Having been fed all that there's a movie out now, isn't there? The Faraway Tree. Yes. I mean it's all coming back into fashion.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

I think it's I think the story's been rather adapted for a more modern era. Uh as I understand it. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, I mean that would be an that would be an interesting conversation starter when you're trying to fit in. Have you seen the faraway tree? What do you think of Enid Blyton? So, anyway, we are going a bit off topic here. But I really, really like that that Maya Angelou idea that you're only free when you you realize you belong no place, you know, but because you belong every place, you know, wherever you are, you belong. Um, because that's quite a good reminder that um it's that courageous decision to be ourselves, to have that strong back and that soft, open, honest, vulnerable front, that actually is going to be a much more comfortable way of us being in the world because trying to be something you're not is just exhausting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Yeah. And I hope our listeners, if they're listening to this and it's hit a hit a chord, struck a chord, that they feel comfortable leaving us a comment to let us know how they feel. Um, you know, because I like to think that our listeners we would we would definitely welcome them and that they'd belong, and it wouldn't matter if they had their nails done or they were scruffy or or they were immaculately perfect.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, if you're listening to this, have a little think about a time that you can remember that you made a real effort to fit in, um, and yet that felt kind of hollow and uncomfortable, as opposed to a time when you decided to just be yourself and actually you ended up having a real genuine connection with somebody. Yeah. So, Lee, thank you so much for bringing all that thought from from one photograph that you saw online last week. I think that's been a really interesting kind of uh topic for our discussion this morning. And I've certainly found it interesting and challenging, and it's made me think about you know, when am I trying to fit in rather than belonging?

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

So I'm gonna take those thoughts away.

SPEAKER_02 43:24

And um, you know, I wanted to be open and honest and vulnerable. And if any of those people from that event are listening to this, the thoughts and beliefs were mine. I know that would never ever have happened. I would have been made to feel nothing but welcome and loved and liked and and whatever. Yeah, but they were just my thoughts and feelings at that moment. Um but they're not there now because yeah, I've had talk with you.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Yeah. But also if they are listening, they might be relieved because maybe one of them felt like that too. Yeah. And they thought, oh, am I the only one? You know, now they know they weren't, so they feel better.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

So all of that. Thank you. I was gonna say all of that just reminds us how good it is to talk to people and to be open and honest. So thank you for your honesty this morning. Lee, it's always refreshing. And um thank you. That was a great conversation.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Thank you for your wisdom, as usual, and your knowledge. Your knowledge knows no bounds. Um, well, yeah, I think you read, I think you must read an awful lot more than I do.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Well, we all have our strengths. Anyway, anyway, thank you for listening, everybody. Thank you for listening. Share this podcast with your friends, with your colleagues, and as Lee says, get in touch with us. Um, and we'll be back soon with another interesting topic, and who knows what what will have sparked that one off. So it's goodbye from me.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

And it's goodbye from me.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Bye